Letter to the Cabinet Office

To the Cabinet Office, with copies to the various Boundary Commission bodies, and certain other concerned politicians etc.
          

I write as the administrator of the Pensioners Debout! site, and even more as an active supporter of the campaign www.votes-for-expat-brits.com and of the campaign for Expat Citizens Rights in the EU.

Further I have frequent communication with Harry Shindler, the 95 year old campaigner for Political Representation for the British citizens abroad.
Harry draws attention to the words of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 21 (i)

1. Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. 

The British Government is a signatory to that Declaration.

Yet the British Government refuses to bring forward a long promised Bill present in the last Election Manifesto for 'Votes-for- Life'.

In contrast France and Italy have long understood the need to recognise the value and the need to recognise the Citizen Abroad. They have constituency ‘deputies’ or assembly members to represent them at a National level. 

Britain cuts off our representation after 15 years.

When I first retired to France at the age of 69 (I am now 84) I had the chance to vote for up to 20 years. That was cut dead by the Blair Government without any reference to my opinion  – thus taking away quite arbitrarily my Right to vote, notably important in the Referendum–

The Citizen abroad has huge ties to the United Kingdom – Socially (family), Culturally and Financially.  I and my wife are in all three ways so linked, that the current Brexit approach could seriously harm our way of life.

But these are incidental to the urgent need to be represented in our National Government – The Government of the Nation. The Nation is the assemblage of Citizens, wherever they live.  The Government has responsibility for all citizens,  and should have a sensitivity towards them, as the expatriate should have  towards the Government. Currently this dialogue and mutual interest is severed.

That severance can only be healed by creating overseas constituencies.

Understand the following points.

1.  The Overseas Citizens have strong links with Britain.

2.  The Overseas Citizens  are often immensely proud of their British roots.

3.  The Overseas Citizens have little interest in the minutiae of management of any on-shore constituency, but they most surely often have an interest in the standing and activities of Britain in the World, and the particular part that they themselves play in these.

4.  The existing MPs, conscious of their own parochial interests  are reluctant to extend the franchise of their  localised constituency to overseas voters. They would probably vote down a simple extension of the principle of Votes-for-Life.

5.  The Overseas Citizens have various  problems which relate to British Government deliberations – pensions – treaty arrangements  affecting ..health .. work permits.. investment/savings opportunities.. bank accounts … cross border movements.., for example. 

6.  At the last General Election & Referendum  more than 250,000 Citizens abroad registered to Vote. Remember many including myself and my wife were prevented from voting.

I am not here suggesting that at this time one proposes as many overseas constituencies as has France.  But one could start with TWO minimum, one for Europe and one for the rest of the World.  As the years pass, and the notion becomes accepted as normal, then the number could increase.

At this time one detects a  resentment on the part of many expatriates of all ages. towards the British Government   Many would raise the two fingers to it. That attitude is picked up by our foreign neighbours.  By fulfilling the promise to grant the vote-for-life in the manner proposed here, this could be turned about, so that the expatriate takes a pride in their Government.
Yours respectfully,

The Referendum Bill

October 13^th 2015 the 2^nd reading of the Bill was debated in the House of Lords.

Many members spoke about the lack of a democratic voice for those who have lived beyond the UK for more than 15 years.

Relevant extracts are included in this *** digest ***.

www.lefourquet.net/HOL-13-10-15.doc

Read what Lord Shipley said

If we left the EU, work permits could return, more people could have to apply for skilled migrant visas, reciprocal health schemes could be reduced, the operation of UK state pensions could be affected and the general ease of mobility for UK citizens across the EU would become much more complicated and uncertain. I wonder whether the Government have calculated the impact if large numbers of UK citizens decided to return to the UK in the event of our exit from the EU.

 The full Hansard report is here

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldhansrd/text/151013-0001.htm#15101360000463

 The Liberal Democrat Party intend at the Committee stage to introduce an amendment to widen the franchise (the voting) to include at least ALL British Citizens in Europe.  This concept was supported by at least some members of all parties. Baroness Royall, who was in the last parliament leader of the Labour Party in the House of Lords, approved.

Neil Kinnock (Lab) -at one time leader of the Labour Party- and Paddy Ashdown(LD) - similarly a previous leader of the LibDems- have said that they will vote for any such amendment.  Lord Lexden (Cons) has pushed for the life-time vote for years.

The Lib Dem announcement on this is here……………..

http://uklibdems.eu/en/article/2015/1115459/lib-dems-fight-for-expat-votes-at-eu-referendum

Those in countries beyond the EU who receive this item should grasp the thought that voting rights will add force to the claim for pension parity.  They may not get the vote in this amendment, but if they lobby for support for this amendment – it should hasten the Votes-for-Life Bill.

After that may well follow a true and full representation of the Citizens abroad.  But moreover you may want to live in France or Italy later on or may be your family will – Remember all British Citizens are also European Citizens.

What should be done now…. Lobby a likely Lord!

In the following link you will see lists of the members of the House of Lords. 

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/

It can be difficult choosing which member or members to contact – By scanning down the list you can see names who you feel may be supportive e.g. Bakewell, Blunkett, Boothroyd etc.. and you can see also how active they have been as members.  Lobby those who have not spoken in the ***digest*** above.

In sending a mail please modify the following - This is important because the HoL clearing room for emails will not forward perceived identical mails - nor multiple addressed copies of mails.

So personalise it.

“Dear (enter the members name),

The Referendum Bill

Do please support the amendment which will be placed at Committee Stage to ensure that British Citizens abroad who have lost their right to vote and have a sincere interest in the outcome of the Referendum can have a voice in this Referendum.  I understand that leading members of all Parties intend to vote for it including members Kinnock, Ashdown, Lexden and others such as Royall, and many Liberal Democrats and also cross-bench Peers.

Extracts from  Hansard of the debate on October 13^th can be read here

www/lefourquet.net/HOL-13-10-15.doc

        Obviously you can invent your own letter or add material to this one.  And when you get a good response do please acknowledge.

FOR those (all British Citizens) who are also European Citizens – this should interest you….. 

https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/EUCitizenship

To Register  to vote (if less than 15 years abroad) --https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

Messages to Citizens Abroad on the May election from the United Kingdom Political Parties.

To go to the start click here

Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, The Green Party and the UK Independence Party (UKIP)

Over the month of February (2015) all five Nation-wide Parties have been requested to State their policy towards Expatriates.
This request has been made four times by the Campaign for Votes for Expatriates and several times (by phone and email) by the journal The Connexion.
The third time of asking was elaborated and is HERE attached to this mailing - It states reasons why Citizens Abroad should have political representation. 
The fourth time of asking was more abrupt.
The Conservative Party replied at the first request to both The Campaign and The Connexion. Three others replied later to The Campaign. The messages are given below in order of their reception.
The Liberal-Democratic Party has not replied.
All the four who replied were sent a draft of this mail so that, if they wished, they could modify their message
Email addresses of the authors of the replies are given below to three of the messages. You may wish to comment or question further. If so, you can respond to them.
The sender of this mail is only relaying these messages and offers no opinion on their content.
    Please recirculate to your own groups and of course friends and relatives in the UK.

************************-------**************************

Messages from the Parties

CONSERVATIVES

The Conservative Party is making a manifesto commitment to protect the civic rights of British citizens living overseas. Millions of British Citizens live and work across the globe. Many have worked hard and contributed to Britain all their lives, continue to pay tax in the UK and have close family living in Britain.

Like many other countries, the UK continues to protect British citizens living abroad with its military, Embassy network, and passport and other services. However, Britain currently restricts the rights of these citizens to vote in General Elections. The last Labour Government reduced the amount of time that British citizens living overseas were entitled to register to vote in UK General Elections to just 15 years. This is just one of many mistakes that they made.   

If the Conservative Party wins the next General Election, we will remove this cap and extend it to a full right as a British Citizen to vote in British elections for life.

Authorship email Mitchell Cohen ----   Mitchell.Cohen@conservatives.com

United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP)

We believe passionately everyone should exercise their democratic right to vote, including expats who still cherish their fundamental ties with Britain.

Issues that UKIP passionately champions are equally relevant overseas. None more so than the EU. Some 70% of UK law, and no doubt the proportion of legislation made in other EU countries where expats may live, is now made by Brussels, by unelected bureaucrats. Our democracy and that of the 27 other member states, has been seriously compromised by EU membership and by a power hungry elite who are more interested in expansionism than serving the people. The economies of many Eurozone countries are in a catastrophic mess, with rising unemployment, plummeting house prices and increasing discontent among a disenfranchised public.

People often raise the argument that if the UK pulled out of the EU, many expats living abroad would be forced to return or would be cut off, without support. How ridiculous! British expats by and large take business abroad, they move abroad with money, or they retire somewhere with better weather. They are rarely competing with the country's young people for work, or emigrate for more favourable welfare benefits. Equally a vast number of expats are in Australia, which has never been part of the EU.

UKIP actually wants a new, changed and better Britain, which is forward looking and global in attitude. Not shackled to an outdated and failing economic and political project from the 1950s that has done more to damage the economy, our democracy and the global reach of the country. Any Brit, wherever they live, that believes in Britain, should back UKIP as the real party for the future.

Authorship email  Alexandra Phillips ----- a.phillips@ukip.org

The GREEN PARTY
“We are actively considering a commitment that all pensioners living abroad receive the same pension and annual pension increase as those living in the UK.”

“We will release further details in our General Election manifesto”.

Authorship:-  the Green party representative  declined to accept mails on this issue.

THE LABOUR PARTY

As you know, British expats who have been resident and registered to vote in the fifteen years prior to an election are eligible to vote in elections for the UK Parliament and the European Parliament as long as they are registered as an overseas voter.

We appreciate that there have been calls for this 15-year rule to be relaxed or abolished in Britain and that this is supported by some expats who are currently unable to vote in UK elections or are at risk of losing their right to vote in upcoming elections. We also recognise that a number of other countries do allow permanent voting rights for expats.

The voting rights of British citizens is, of course, an extremely important issue and we agree this should be looked at carefully. As you say in your letter, a Ten Minute Rule Bill - the UK Overseas Voters (15 Year Rule) Bill - has been introduced to Parliament and proposes to legislate for permanent voting rights for British expats. The Bill is now scheduled to receive its Second Reading in the House of Commons on 6th March.

Labour hopes this Bill will provide an opportunity for the House of Commons to debate this issue and consider the merits and demerits of the current 15-year rule.

We also believe we need to do more to encourage all citizens - expats and those registered in the UK - to register to vote. It is welcome that the Electoral Commission has set a target of getting 100,000 more overseas voters registered before the next General Election. The introduction of online registration also means it is now easier than ever for Brits abroad to register to vote. It remains important, though, that the Government continue to look into other ways of engaging British citizens abroad to register and participate in elections.

Authorship email  A Williams office of Ed Miliband, ed.miliband.mp@parliament.uk

 The LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY

No reply has been received from the Liberal-Democrats. 

 ------------------
Postscripts.
1,  On the 6th March (2015) Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP is launching in Parliament the second reading of his 10 minute Bill to remove the 15 year limit on Voting by Overseas Citizens. (Overseas Voters 15 year rule Bill) to view go here ---    http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Live.aspx
2. To Register to vote go here     https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

Brian Cave

Why people don't want to bother to vote.

Written Evidence to the Committee for Political and Constitutional Reform

Here I will address the question

Why do so few British Citizens Abroad register to Vote?

1.  A blunt answer is because they cannot see any point in so doing.

So --- “Why do they not see any point in so doing?”

Answer because they feel that very few politicians take any interest in them.

2.  Why do so few  politicians take little interest in the Citizen Abroad?

Answer  - The MPs are based in UK Constituencies and that is their prime concern. They cannot see why anyone living abroad would have much interest or connection with that constituency.  And they are right generally to take that point of view.

3.  The Citizens Abroad have various reasons for being concerned with British lawmakers, or British politics as it affects them and the British actions and influence in the World.  In short the actions of the GOVERNMENT but not politics at the local level.

Those with whom I communicate, those over retirement age, receive often ALL their income from Britain, many are taxed by Britain, all have exceedingly strong family and cultural ties to Britain. Most are  PROUD of being British .

They have needs and concerns which spring from the very position of being British in another country.  In the EU especially they see themselves as NOT living in a foreign land but in a extension of Britain into Europe.  There is in the EU a kind of nexus of nations, each with ties to another place though rooted in a land which is not that of their birth.  This ‘freedom of movement’ feeling is not understood, it would seem, by the politicians in Whitehall.  We see ourselves as Ambassadors of British Culture though this appears to be a fact unappreciated by the British politicians.

4. Thus there is a great sense of detachment from British Politics because the British Politicians ignores us, is frightened of us as a potential threat to their constituency, does not and cannot understand our feelings.  The Citizen Abroad feels that there is no point in voting for an MP who has no demonstrable interest in his situation.  We feel that we are perceived by various politicians and the media as deserters leaving the land of our birth.

5.  The very existence of  the 15 year limit on voting is a HUGE deterrent in itself to registering. If you know that the vote is going to be taken away after 15 years, then why bother to register before?  One feels the politicians don’t really want you anyway.

6.  One would like to see the possibility of a dialogue with an MP to whom one can relate. 

There ought to be channels of communication on matters of international treaties.  In the EU matters of social co-ordination are most important, yet we get the impression that the elderly Citizens Abroad are considered a nuisance, a  drain on the British economy.  When treaties are considered, what British civil servant or politician  has the knowledge to speak up for the impact on the British Citizen resident in the other country?  There appears to be no-one who can speak for us. 

7. The system whereby Citizens Abroad can only relate to the MP of their last constituency in the UK, results in a diluted conveyance of their thoughts and concerns so that nothing is concentrated in one representation.

Conclusion

1. Remove the 15 year limit. That will inspire some confidence!

Then at some little time later – hopefully not too long -

2. Establish MPs for the Citizen Abroad in a manner similar to France. 

UKIP and the British Expatriate in the European Union.

To go to the index click here

Crisis for the Expatriate in Europe?

Why has UKIP been so successful?

Probably because in Britain, the public is disenchanted by their experiences with the traditional politicians.  [See also below **Nigel Farage**]

Expatriates haven’t had a chance to express an opinion. Many can’t vote! Most of the rest do not bother. Amongst them it would seem ‘apathy’ rules.  The Government’s Electoral Commission has made efforts to get to them to register to vote.  Petitions originating in Spain and France to awaken a political consciousness have become damp squibs.  As a leading example, a petition begun by  the editor of a French English language newspaper (the Connexion)  has attracted only just over 3400 signatures – It needs tens of thousands of signatures. Why do expats not claim the right to vote!  It is in their interest to do so.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/55085. 

There are over 60,000 British pensioners living in France [106,000 in Spain; and another 140,000 throughout Europe excluding Ireland] -these groups have the most to lose if Farage’s UKIP  gains ascendancy in Britain.  Why have not these 300,000 signed these petitions? Is it that they are ignorant of the situation?  By doing so they could gain power to protect their pensions, investments, health care costs and other aspects of their lives.   But it seems they cannot be bothered; they are apathetic and ‘cannot see the point’ in voting for a politician in the UK.  Quite probably few also have bothered to vote for the MEP lists for the Euro-Parliament.

You can see a reason for this appalling apathy.  As things are, there is only a handful of British politicians who show the slightest interest at all in the welfare of Britons abroad. Those few of us who have written to MPs get answers saying ‘The government has decided this or that.’  They never show a willingness to debate, to listen.  It is surely necessary that they are forced to take an interest.

Turning attention to the younger generation of expatriates, remember also,– they can only live in the EU by agreement with the EU. For these reasons (and more), some representatives for expatriates are necessary at Westminster.

If the Farage bandwagon continues to its desired end the situation could be most uncomfortable for British people living in other Countries of the EU.  A referendum flying on the words of Nigel Farage could spell disaster for them

If the expatriates fail to have political protection, then they are not masters of their lives. If the EU fails for us, we have no defence.

The situation is dangerous.

**Farage and cultural change.**

Nigel Farage is undoubtedly exuberant and is quite a positive and likeable chap.  He seems to be listening to the mood of the people – in Britain.  That mood, partly arising from political disenchantment would appear also to arise from discomfort at cultural change in Britain brought about by immigration. But a similar argument can operate in reverse in France and parts of Spain.

In France, am I odd in feeling uncomfortable when one hears a large number of English voices  in a small town?  Is it possible that some French people could also be uncomfortable with this cultural change?  Is this also true in Spain? Cyprus?

The  danger for British Citizens in Farage’s desire to exit the EU?

British Citizens would cease to be European Citizens!  That is truly serious.

The Briton would no longer have the right to freely live and move in Europe.

Euro laws would no longer operate to preserve the right to ensure that British State pensions be paid in full in Europe.  All benefits would cease to be protected,

Health care support would cease.

The French (or Spanish, Cypriots etc.) could impose restrictions on foreigners in almost any manner. This would impinge of the lives of both older and younger generations.  Emigration from the UK to Europe would be seriously affected.

All Euro States would become as foreign to the British State as any other country in the world.

In brief it is most urgent that Britons abroad in Europe  are heard and listened to in the British parliament.

All who value the present situation and their ability to live in the European Union should sign this petition of the Editor of the Connexion.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/55085.

And also this one  --- www.europeancitizensabroad.eu

If you entitled to  register to vote in the UK elections – do so here

https://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/    [Go to ‘overseas voters’]

It is desirable that people contact MPs – even the Prime Minister- in Britain.   Get an address from this link -

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

You could forward this item… But the low number of signatures on the petitions simply affirms in their minds that the matter is of no importance to us. 

If  Farage has his way in some future referendum,  our world could be become greatly changed, and we will have no say at all.  Remember that.

(Brian Cave – lefourquet@gmail.com)

View more than 640  comments from expatriates who want the vote here. http://polldaddy.com/poll/5099387/?view=results

Voting in a French Village

 Voting for the local Council - Where Citizens are respected.

Posters for the two parties March 23rd 2014

A cold day for the end of March.  Snow fell to the south of us, towards the Pyrenees. It was five degrees at St. Romain.  My wife and I drove down to the polling station at 8.30 in the morning.  We were not the first,

But the welcome was warm.  The 'tellers' knew who we were for as English people we are well known. But we met friends and our neighbours there.  

We really felt warmed by the reception.  We felt as though we were truly part of the community.  We had something in common, the same cause for the benefit and progress of the place where we live.

One could choose one of two lists of candidates.  There was the Socialists - La Gauche.  and then the other which was more interesting.  That list was a coalition of  citizens who had come together to consider the problems of the town.  The was  no party affiliation amongst them.  They were brought together in a common cause. Citizens together.

When I asked if I could take a photo, the welcome was so warm.  

One may discern the numbers of voting envelopes already in the box so early in the morning, perhaps there were about twenty.

The system is different from in England. One votes for a List not for an individual. Each list has about twenty names of hopeful councilors. This is quite a large number but our town of Gourdon is quite large for rural France - perhaps about 5,000 voters in all.   St Romain is just one hamlet of the town. 

The two lists are printed on separate sheets of paper. You take one of the sheets and you place it in a special envelope.  This in then placed in the polling box, the lid of which is controlled by one of the tellers.

My reason for recounting all this is the contrast I feel for the voting and political representation  I have with my own National Government of the United Kingdom.  As an European citizen I can vote in France for the council of the local commune but for no other body.  I have no vote for any National Government.

The French wherever they live from Pole to Pole have representation in the National Assembly in Paris. All French citizens are valued  anywhere in the World. No so the British - no way - no how.  Although I cannot avoid a close association with Britain, culturally, socially and through my family connections, and financially, for all my income comes from Britain and I am still taxed there,  I cannot have any political representation at all with that Government, and this disconnect hurts me deeply.

The British Government has to be classed as one of the most non-democratic in Europe.  Isn't that sad?

Who needs the Vote most? - The Government? or The Voter?

 To go to the Index and Beginning click here

On Friday 31^st January 2014 in the House of Lords The EU Referendum Bill – died - but it is far from dead!    What does that mean for us?  Quite a lot!

Your help needed – see below.

Lord Lipsey,  the archetypal ‘we rule – you are ruled’ politician, tabled the motion that the House should  ‘resume’! This arcane procedure meant that the Committee stage of the House debating the Referendum Bill came to an abrupt end and so did the Bill itself!  It is all slightly strange to those unfamiliar with the way ‘our’ government proceeds.

The Bill had a gaping great hole in its construction so far as the Citizen Abroad who lives in other States of the EU are concerned.  Unless the British Citizen had left less than fifteen ago he/she could have no vote in the referendum.  So although their lives could be turned upside down following the possibility of an OUT vote created by the resident British population, they could have no democratic say in the laws and treaties which affect their future, and it seems that most other expatriates are blind to the consequences. We were not to be consulted because ‘they’ rule – n’est-ce pas!

It is frankly tragic that so few citizens abroad in the EU realise the dangerous cliff edge which was appearing in front of them.

But Citizens across the world are also affected, for what affects the Government’s attitude towards the British Citizen in the EU also affects them.

THIS BILL will return effectively in an unchanged form UNLESS the British Citizens abroad DEMAND change! Demand Representation! Demand the Vote! But ‘the rulers have ruled’ from time immemorial, but should this be their attitude?  Should there not be a dialogue?

If the Conservatives win at the next election, Mr. Cameron has made it quite clear that a new Referendum Bill would appear and would be forced through Parliament almost exactly in its present form.

It is my view that a Referendum might have one good outcome.  That is - as long as the result is ‘yes’!   It would lance the festering boil of contention over this issue in Britain, and ensure that Britain is where it should be as a leading nation in Europe. But surely ! any new Referendum Bill should not ignore the British Citizens in  the rest of Europe!  But it most certainly will unless we, the citizens abroad, put aside our distrust of all politicians and say in no uncertain voice - WE WANT TO BE REPRESENTED.   We need to be Represented. We count! We are British Citizens!

A number of members of the Lords spoke well in our interest on Friday. Among these were the Lords Shipley, Bowness, Baroness Quinn, Kerr of Kinlochard, Williams of Elvel,  and others.  I was interested to hear Lord Kinnock refer to the oft-repeated phrase ‘no taxation without representation’ . He was referring to the French residents in Britain but the same could be said of  so many Britons Abroad who by law have to pay tax to the UK! These are the politicians who think differently – their mind set is ‘We rule but we listen to the citizen’ .  “We rule by consent”  They may be unelected peers but quite a few listen to the citizens.

I am quite certain, from personal mails to me, that leading proponents of this Bill, are sympathetic to our cause, but the appalling apparent lack of interest by the expatriate citizen in the political scene, is ruining our position and if we do not stand up now and say WE WANT TO HAVE REPRESENTATION IN THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT then we might well not get it in our lifetime.

The reason why the Politicians are indifferent to us, is because most of us are indifferent towards them!  This must change.

Your help is needed.

We need to publicise in ten Bullet Points why the British Citizen Abroad needs to be represented in the British Parliament.

It is necessary that the needs of the citizen are heard.

BUT ALSO

It is necessary for good Government and the ongoing prestige of Britain that the citizen is consulted. It is in the interest of The Government that ‘we have the vote’!

Send me your thoughts - your list. Covering why the Government needs to represent us as well as why we need this representation.

The final list will be publicised through all the media outlets we can muster.

Now is the hour to stand! For the right to be heard, and the need to listen.

 lefourquet@gmail.com

Hansard report can be read here.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldhansrd/text/140131-0002.htm

Begin at column 1532 for the amendment 57 on ‘Entitlement to vote in the Referendum’.

With good internet reception you can view the Parliament TV. Recoding at:--

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=14792.

Begin towards 2.15 p.m.

Profiles of the Lords who spoke can be read here.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/

Britons Abroad in Europe meet with Mme Viviane Reding, a Vice President of the EU

Brussels 5^th September 2013

A delegation of Britons Abroad meet with Mme Viviane Reding, Vice President of the European Union and Commissioner for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship.
The list of all the participants representing all political persuasions, other interests, and the EU commission can be viewed here.

A personal view of the meeting.

 Right -Mme Reding exchanges views with Harry

 Shindler and Sir Roger Gale

Mme Reding holds in her hand the booklet “EU Citizenship Report 2013 

You can read this document by going to the following link ----

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_2010-2014/reding/factsheets/citizenship-report

Fourteen Britons from France, Italy, Spain, Belgium and London (they included representatives of all three political persuasions along with other interest groups) met with Mme Reding and four EU Commission officials at the Commission offices in Brussels. A Greek citizen was there as an observer and we had a supporting communication from an Irish expatriate group.

Sir Roger Gale MP led our delegation. Harry Shindler, the 92 year old initiator of this meeting encouraged us to meet him to back his demand for his vote to be given back to him by the British Government. Sir Roger exposed the situation that the Briton abroad had the vote taken away after 15 years and asked that the Commission might intervene with the British Government.  The response from Mme Reding was that this would infringe the British subsidiarity clauses in this field

When Mme Redding moved on to another engagement, her Deputy Head of Cabinet, Mme Viviane Hoffman remained with the other officials and we sat round the large oval table in the cabinet room.  Outside in the streets of Brussels the temperature was 33 degrees.  Inside the debate was measured.  .

Harry was disappointed with the Commissioners problem with subsidiarity especailly since later the subject of the Referendum was raised and again the issue of subsidiarity  checked the debate.  That the majority of Britons abroad in the EU may not vote in a referendum which is fundamental to their welfare is an appalling malfunction in any democracy.

Yet as the debate developed I became more and more pleased.  The spirit of the EU was running with us.

Mme Hoffman seen left with Harry Shindler made it abundantly clear that the EU Commission was delighted to have this delegation there.  She use the phrase “honoured that Mr. Shindler” should come to Brussels.  It could not have been more plain. 

This discussion from the start entered the  European sphere – Why else were we there? 

Eight nations of the twenty eight States in the full European Union plus the extra EAA members do not give full democratic rights to their nationals in the rest of Europe.  Britain, Ireland and Denmark are the three significant larger States with this situation

It became increasingly apparent to me that our British  delegation was most important. 

Is the message –‘Britain needs to show the way forward in the matter of Democracy in Europe’ Where Britain goes the others will follow.‘?

This seemed to be a seminal moment.

My time came to speak.

I watched the four people team of the Commission

as I spoke.

“What is a Nation?” I rhetorically asked.   It is the people, not the physical geography of the towns, hills and rivers.  I held my hands like cups to each side and said ‘Democracy is a two way process. On the right the citizens look to the national Government for support and help. On the left the Government should be proactive and look towards the citizens in the European countries to see how they are faring. The British Government does not’.  I saw the two men of the EU commission pick up their pencils almost simultaneously and write. I was surprised and pleased.

We need to be proud of our National Government as the Government needs to show pride in the Briton Abroad.

I spoke of the confused nonsense that can arise from muddled Double Taxation agreements, drawing attention as an example to the varying position of Nurses pensions in Germany (taxed in the UK) and France (not so).  The pencils again moved.  

The meeting drew to a close and perhaps cheekily, I jumped in with a sentence relating to an earlier plea of Harry Shindler’s on the same theme which marks and honours his lifetime endeavours.  “On March 3^rd 1944 whilst Harry was fighting at Anzio, the house I lived in was blasted by a stick of German bombs. Let us hope that on May 8^th 2014 [Victory in Europe day] we can, as Harry desires, celebrate our victory in this cause with the Churchillian V sign”.

(Author Brian Cave – lefourquet@orange.fr)

add your signature to --- http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/43238

and comment on www.votes-for-expat-brits.com

Please circulate to accumulate – Britons Abroad must unite.

Health Payments in Europe

To go to the INDEX and start click here.

French & European Health payments by the UK for British Pensioners

A/. It is appropriate that the retired citizens who live in France know exactly what expenses are paid  by the British Government for their health care in France.

I am eighty years old, retired, and have never earned any money in France and therefore have never subscribed to the French social security system. The UK is by EU law the ‘competent State’ for the support of our Social Security.  

Like so many others I find the costs of our health care ever rising. Some elderly couples are needing to find beyond 2,000 euros a year  for a top-up health insurance.

Under EU law France is required to ask the UK for the actual costs of our health treatment.  What is meant by ‘actual costs’?

I decided to find out the position.  This is possible via a Freedom of Information request to the Department of Health, London.   I have received very courteous mails from that department and was able to obtain details of all payments to France concerning my health payments since August 1998.  These are confidential and were sent to me by recorded delivery.

I have selected one item here which I have cross checked with details I received from the CPAM (French social security department).

Item  24^th January 2012

CPAM detail

Acte Biologie      

montant dépense (actual cost)      82.08€      taux 60% (amount paid by the French State)

montant payé  (amount paid to the  institution of treatment)          49.25€

participation forfaitaire à retenir   (‘tax’ retained for future collection from patient)   -4.00€

Soins infirmiers  

montant dépense (actual cost)       4.73€      taux  60% (amount paid by the French State)

montant payé  (amount paid to the  institution of treatment)             2.84

Reglé au Laboratoire   (Amount for final settlement to the Laboratory – A sum of  34.72€ was paid by my health  insurance  making up the total of  86.81€ =82.08+4.73€)      

 52.09€.  This is equal to the above 49.25€+2.84€

-------------------------

Breakdown on Claim from France sent to me from the Department of Health, London on items between 15/12/2011 to 22/06/2012.

Soins paramedicaux                           2.84€

Analyses biologiques                        49.25€   i.e = 52.09€

It is clear that the French State seeks repayment of the costs which the French State would find for a French Citizen.  .

B/.The added burden of French taxation on the cost of health.

The above  CPAM detail indicates a ‘participation forfaiture’ of 4€ .   This is a tax which the French Government levies on most health transactions.  It is 1€ for each visit to a G.P. and 0.5€ for collection of a drug at a pharmacy. 

The cost out of one’s pocket for the ‘Acte Biologie’ was therefore increased by 4€. 

The cost to me of this ‘Acte +soins’  was therefore 34.72€+4€= 38.72€. The 4€ was not paid by my insurance.

Over a year, the taxes on health costs accumulate. Together with the above taxes on each medical act as indicated above one must add the taxes on health insurance. During 2012 these taxes amounted in my case to towards 200€.  The more one requires drugs and medical care the higher the taxes. Some pensioners are paying out a great deal more than this in taxes on their health. The more ill you are the more tax you pay!  The French should be ashamed of this taxation on sick people.

C/. Insurance costs

During 2012 the cost of health insurance per month was for me 128.78€ (for a couple – being 64.39€ for one person).  It has since risen in 2013 to 135.78€/month -1629.36€/year).  198.15€/year of this latter sum is a tax paid to the French Government – i.e about 12%.

D/. The EU Laws on the position of health costs.

Regulations 883/2004 and its ‘implementing regulation 987/2009 are those that concern Social Security matters. My interpretations are indicated in orange.

Basic EU Regulation No 883/2004 defines ‘institution’ as ---

"institution" means, in respect of each Member State, the body or authority responsible for applying all or part of the legislation."

The EU laws below are interpreted as referring to the ‘actual costs’ to the institution of the State not the actual costs of the institution that provided the treatment.

EU Regs 883/2004 Article 24 covers the situation relating to Pensioners who have retired to live in another State…I quote verbatim.

“No right to benefits in kind under the legislation of the Member State of residence

1. A person who receives a pension or pensions under the legislation of one or more Member States and who is not entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of the Member State of residence shall nevertheless receive such benefits for himself and the members of his family, insofar as he would be entitled thereto under the legislation of the Member State or of at least one of the Member States competent in respect of his pensions, if he resided in that Member State. The benefits in kind shall be provided at the expense of the institution referred to in paragraph 2 by the institution of the place of residence, as though the person concerned were entitled to a pension and benefits in kind under the legislation of that Member State.”

[Observations/Interpretation :- It states that one should receive medical treatment in the same manner as one would expect under the legislation of the UK as if the patient resided in the UK.

                                    The costs are to be borne by the UK – the ‘competent State’ for your social security.

                                    The medical care is supplied as to a French person under French legislation as though he/she were a state pensioner of France.]

Continue....

“2. In the cases covered by paragraph 1, the cost of benefits in kind shall be borne by the institution as determined in accordance with the following rules:

(a) where the pensioner is entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of a single Member State, the cost shall be borne by the competent institution of that Member State;”

[Interpretation – The UK is bound to pay the medical costs]

“Article 35

Reimbursements between institutions

1. The benefits in kind provided by the institution of a Member State on behalf of the institution of another Member State under this Chapter shall give rise to full reimbursement.”

-----------------------

From the Complementary ‘Implementing’  EU Regulation 987-2009 we read..

“Article 62

Principles

1.  For the purposes of applying Article 35 and Article 41 of the basic Regulation, the actual amount of the expenses for benefits in kind, as shown in the accounts of the institution that provided them, shall be reimbursed to that institution by the competent institution, ………….”

***************************

Commentary.

The difficulty lies in the interpretation of the clause: copied in above--

“The benefits in kind shall be provided at the expense of the institution referred to in paragraph 2 by the institution of the place of residence, as though the person concerned were entitled to a pension and benefits in kind under the legislation of that Member State.”

I observe that this clause has no mention of costs.  It relates to the provision of the medical treatment.  This has to be provided as though one is a French citizen.

One notes the contradiction with  the previous clause which states that

‘the pensioner’  shall nevertheless receive such benefits for himself …., insofar as he would be entitled thereto under the legislation of the (United Kingdom) [Member State] competent in respect of his pensions, (as) if he resided in (the United Kingdom) [that Member State].

And…

the cost shall be borne by the competent institution (DoH) of that Member State (the United Kingdom).

So we should get treatment as though we lived in the UK and the UK should cover the cost.

The law appears to me contradictory – It is written that one should receive the medical treatment as though one lived under the legislation of the UK and ALSO as a French citizen pensioner would receive it under the legislation in France.

Many French Citizens – those on 100% CMU cover – pay nothing for their health care.  In short –  the cost to the patient is variable according to the circumstances of the patient! Since the British pensioner has costs covered (in theory!) by the Department of Health, London, it would be reasonable to suppose that these patients should also fall into the 100% cover category. I explore that thought ina European context……

E/. Other European National Citizens in France.

EU laws must be applied equally to all nationals across Europe.  The provision of health care for a state pensioner varies widely from  Estonia to Portugal.   It would seem almost impossible to provide health care for every ‘mobile’ pensioner under two systems of legislation at the same time.  The current interpretation seems inadequate.

It is also a restriction and distortion on free movement of pensioners.   The pensioner nationals who move from most other European countries to the UK obtain free health care.  Clearly with the UK pensioners moving to other countries in Europe, it is very often and usually not so. 

F/. Reform? And a solution?

Would it not be sensible to transfer 100% of the costs from the State of Residence  to the administration of the  ‘competent States’ for the support of Social Security and then that administration should seek appropriate repayments according to the legislation of that State from the  pensioner patient ‘as though they lived in their home country’?  Is this indeed that which the EU regulations are seeking? i.e the costs should be  borne by the 'competent State?

The pensioner should then settle their bills (if appropriate so to do) in a manner according to the legislation of the ‘home’ State.

G/. The need for Representation on these matters at a political level.

There is no-one in the British Government or Administration with any responsibility to look after the interests of British Pensioners in mainland Europe.  

There should be someone who has the responsibility to negotiate with the EU or other national governments concerning the condition of British Pensioners abroad in Europe.